Here's the continuation of Joseph W Bean's interview with legendary S/M filmmaker Roger Earl, this installment pulled from the Dec '97-Jan '98 issue of International Leatherman magazine. Earl and his collaborative partner Terry LeGrand were behind many of the most influential classic gay S/M films and videos, including Born to Raise Hell (discussed at length in the first installment) and their later Marathon Films releases, including the Dungeons of Europe and Bound for Europe series.
We hope you enjoy this wrap-up of the reprint! (Click here to read Part 1 first.)
an interview with Joseph W. Bean
Joseph W. Bean: When you went to Europe, were you still shooting on film or were you using videotape?
Roger Earl: I was on tape at that time. But I like shooting with two cameras because I can get through with people a lot quicker and save their energy. You lose the energy when you drag a scene out for three or four hours. When you are using two cameras, it's so easy to just get all of the action, and you don't have to drag them out and keep it on and on.
JWB: In Europe, one camera was Palm Drive Video's Jack Fritscher. Who's the other?
RE: Mark Henry was the other one. Together, Jack and Mark did a great job. I was very pleased with it. On the first three European films, the Dungeons of Europe series. I used one cameraman, a kid from San Francisco. He was someone I met through a woman who did gay porno films. Rumpelstiltskin [editor's correction: R. Stilskin] was her screen name on all these porno films. He turned out to be a dynamite cameraman. He was really a performer; she used him as a model, but he was a cameraman for me.
JWB: When you went to Europe to do that first series, did you know you were shooting for three films from the start or were you just... shooting?
RE: I was shooting everything I could. Then, when I got home, l divided it up into three different films. I was just shooting scenes. I did the same with the other, later ones. I just shot scenes and edited them together.
JWB: So it was two shooting trips, and the first three videos came out of one?
RE: Yes, then we came home and Dungeons of Europe - which includes Pictures From the Black Dance, Like Moths to a Flame, and Men With No Name - was a success. Then, when I was in London on television business, I called Terry [LeGrand, Earl's partner in Marathon] and said, "You should really come over here. There are dynamite people here, it can be a great place to shoot." And he said, ''I'll do it. I'll come over. I'll bring money and a camera. And we'll have to pick up the other people for the crew there." I was sure we could do that, so I told the television star I was working with that I'd really like to stay over for a while. He said that would be fine, and he'd make sure the hotel took care of me. What could I say but, "Great, thank you." Terry did arrive with the camera, but no money. "Well," I thought, "we'll figure out something with Terry. Tomorrow is another day, and something will happen. You know... it will be a miracle." Well, the only miracle was that I called the man I was working for when he got home and said, ''I'm desperate. I need some money. I need about twenty grand." And he said, "The theater owes me that much. Just go over to the theater and pick it up. Tell them I said it's okay. You can have it." I went to the theater, they got on the phone with him, and the next thing... I had twenty thousand dollars in my hand. It was all in pounds, but it was twenty thousand dollars. So I was very grateful to the star I worked with, and promised I'd give it back to him within a year. Terry said all the money that came in would be mine to pay the loan back. But I had to take out a bank loan to pay back the loan I'd taken. I am a man of my word, and he got his money back in a year. Then I also had the bank loan to pay off... It was all interesting. Anyway, I can't talk about Europe without talking about mentioning Christian Dreeson, who was really my Val Martin of the European Films.
JWB: How did you find him?
RE: In Europe, they have this funny little SM magazine...
JWB: Mr. SM?
RE: Yes, it was Toy or Mr. SM, but I can't tell you which one it was. Anyway, there was an ad in the magazine for him, with his beautiful ass... showing just this beautiful ass in the ad.
JWB: He was just advertising for people to play with?
RE: Yes, and I said, "This is somebody I have got to have." It was all in German. I had no idea what the ad said. I really didn't research what the ad said, but there was this ad with Christian in it showing this pretty butt and... I think he was looking over his shoulder. I didn't know how we were going to find him. We were going to have to get an interpreter to see if we could track him down. There wasn't a phone number, you had to write a letter. Anyway, we were working in London, shooting the London segment, and we had this guy as our still photographer, David. I think we found him through Jim Stewart of Fetters. I was still carrying on about this picture of the German boy's butt, and David wanted to see it. He looked and said, "I know him. I took that picture. He comes here all the time. He's a good friend." Of course I said, "Get me this man." David got on the phone, and I had Christian. That's how I got Christian: all my moaning and groaning, and having the stars working right or whatever... putting me together with David who knew Christian. So Christian was a great asset to the European shoot, as you know.
And I care so much for him. As you know, we flew him to the United States, and had a lot of other people were wanting to use him, but Christian was very loyal. He said to me, "I would not do that to you. I would not do that for him." And these other jobs were possible money in his pocket, but he would not do it out of loyalty to us. Now, you have to respect that a lot, Joseph. Things like that mean a lot to me.
So when I went back for the second shoot, I wanted to use Christian again. Of course, I talked to him through an interrupter. I could never speak German, and he wasn't that good with English. I told him I really wanted to use him, and he said I'd have to pay him ten times what we paid before. I told the interpreter, “I'm sorry, but I really can't afford to pay Christian ten times what we paid before, and it's going to be a very sad shame that we come over here to shoot these other films, and he's not going to be a part of it." And Christian said, "You don't know when I'm kidding, Roger. What's wrong with you? I'm kidding, I'm kidding." He was so cute. So everything worked out fine and Christian did Knast.
RE: Christian was certainly easy to work with, just a treat, and then, you know, we were friends and family and all that stuff. But the kid that worked with him, Michael, became a difficult proposition, only because Michael was hooked up with some hairdresser that was ready to ruin everything. Michael was dying to do this film, and he was a sweet, lovely, dear man... with this hairdresser out to put the kibosh on it all. He was going to call the police, have the shoot raided. Anyway, I said, "Terry, deal with this hairdresser. I don't want to know what's happening. You deal with it." And Terry dealt with it, and we had no more problems. I had enough to worry about without some crazy hairdresser having me arrested in Germany. So that got solved, thanks to my friend Terry. I don't know what Terry did, sent the German Mafia after him or what-the-fuck, but I never had a problem with it afterward.
In Dusseldorf, where we did Fit To Be Tied, we had an interesting situation. We went down to this bar - that's where we got a lot of our people, in bars - and there was this hot bartender, a really hunky guy that I wanted to use. So, finally, we talked him into it. He really wanted to do the film. I must say that Terry was wonderful about this. Before we even arrived, he had set up things with people over there. He had three or four actors already hired before we got there, but I wanted this guy. Of course, Terry talked him into it. He explained to Terry that he had a lover. You know, we would really have to be careful... as long as we were not showing the film in Germany... so on and so forth. So fine, we start shooting the next day, and shoot with him. He was in one of the first scenes we did, and he was giving us a wonderful performance. We were almost through, and my actors for the second scene started coming in, and - one of them is his lover. Yes, an actor who walked in for the second scene was his lover. It was mind-boggling for the two of them. It was unbelievable, but we finally got it. The lover did the second scene. He was the one that was in the cage. It was just one of those things that happen on a shoot.
RE: Then when we were in Amsterdam, of course Rob of Amsterdam was very instrumental in helping us and couldn't do enough for us, introducing us to people, and letting us use his facility, and...
JWB: This was after Rob himself was gone, though, right?
RE: Rob and Dai [his lover] were both there, but Dai was not well at the time, and Rob talked to us about how they'd set the date [for Dai's suicide] and so forth, which turned Terry on. That is why he wanted to become a citizen of Amsterdam, so he can be euthanized or whatever. But Rob was so helpful, so wonderful, even though Dai was very sick at the time. We went to the hospital to see Dai. He couldn't have been better to us. Then, while we were talking to Rob in his store, talking to him about what I wanted to do, what I could use and so forth... well, we were downstairs, and this guy kept following us around; everywhere we'd go, this guy would be hovering around us. Well, pretty soon my camera man came over to me and said, "Roger, this guy wants to be in your film." I said, "Oh, well, I'll be happy to talk to him." I talked to him for a couple minutes, told him we hadn't set everything up yet, asked for his number so I could him when I was able to give him the date, place, and time where we could use him. And he said, "Fine, fine. I really want to do this." I asked if he understood what this film would be, real SM and all. "Yeah," he said, "whatever you want."
Later, I called him and his wife answered. She said he wasn't in. I said I'd call back, and she asked if I was with the film company from the United States. I said I was. And she said, "Oh, my husband wants to do your film, anything you want him to do. He'll do anything you want. He's dying to do your film. You just tell me when you need him and he'll be there. I told her when I needed him, and he was there. I made damn sure he sucked dick and did it all. And he did it willingly and happily. These interesting things just happen when you're shooting.
You know, besides these SM films, I've shot what we call vanilla films too. One that comes to mind that was kind of interesting is Fade In, where I put Jon King in a spider web and all this shit. While I was shooting this one scene, with this very young good-looking kid... he looked like one of those wonderful Iowa farm boys with this slim body, but he was all muscle, every part of his body was muscle. He had this beautiful alabaster skin and was just a cute, cute kid with an ass to die for. And I had this big burly type guy that was fucking him, 'cause this wasn't an SM film. You know, the big guy was doing all the fucking, We had this kid just spread out and the guy was going at it. I'm sitting at the monitor, and we're on a close-up of this big guy pounding the hell out of the kid's butt, pounding him hard, which was so wonderful. All of a sudden, I hear snoring. I turned around and the kid is sound asleep and snoring. I got up, went over and tapped him on the shoulder and said "I've got to get a little more reaction out of you." I couldn't believe it. I mean he was snoring at the top of his lungs. So these are some of the experiences of a pornographer.
There's another thing I wanted to bring up: the Southern California Drummer Contest. I got to be a part of that, and it was a wonderful experience for me because I got to produce and do some creative work in a live aspect. One of the most memorable and wonderful parts of it for me was Jeff Snyder, who had been in contests all over the country - New Orleans, New York, everywhere - and had always come in second, always the runner-up. He did a fantasy with Sky [Renfro], who took off her shirt and did this whole wonderful thing... It was magic, it was wonderful. They came to me and said that Sky wanted to do this topless, and I said, "Fine, do it anyway she wants. I don't care." Of course, Jeff came in first place. He won Mr. Southern California Drummer and deserved to. He was so thrilled, I can't tell you. He was so happy, so elated... but three weeks later was dead and never got to come to San Francisco [for the Mr. Drummer finals]. I think it meant so much to him to have won, and everybody was so all over him because the fantasy was just so great. I was a part of this thing that meant so much to this kid just before he died. That, to me, was a nice part of my life. I was so happy to be a part of that.
Anyway, Joseph, those are the things that I kind of thought about and wanted to mention.
JWB: I have a few more questions I think people would like to hear you answer. Okay?
RE: Absolutely.
JWB: Before you got into making porn, I assume you were doing something at NBC that was related to making film, like directing or something like that. If not, how did anyone get the idea of you doing an SM film?
RE: I started working in the wardrobe department at NBC twenty-five years ago or more. I was working in wardrobe and I was kind of a pushy motherfucker at the time, just as I am today. I started telling the production office they shouldn't be shooting this here, they should shoot it there, otherwise you're going to have to wait for these... You've scheduled this all wrong, do it this way. So they ended up asking me to be a production manager and the director of the show; that was The Dean Martin Show. The director of the show was a really scary tyrant. He was also an incredible genius, a genius director, and just being around him really taught me so much. I learned daily from him: directing, editing, how to handle stars, etc. And George [the friend who talked Roger into making Born to Raise Hell] knew what I was learning. I had talked to him about it, and that's why he pushed me into it. He said he knew I could do it.
JWB: He was right, absolutely right. It's a long way from Born to Raise Hell to the beginning of the European videos. Obviously, you did a lot of older films and videos in that time, and some of it must have been satisfying. Still, if I were in your shoes, I would have been sort of hungry all that time, waiting for this next big beast, the next SM hit.
RE: Oh no, I did like Fade In and Fade Out, and Men of the Midway, which was a fun film to do. Tim Kramer was in that, and he was in Gayracula and in New Zealand Under Covers - a wonderful kid to work with. He was originally a Falcon star - Falcon's the one that really gave him his break - and he was one of the ones that I made [Names Project] quilt panels for. I mean, I really enjoyed working with people like that. It was in that period that I made Chain Reactions, too. That one was bought by HIS, and they edited it because they panicked; they thought they were going to get in trouble for what I did. But, yes, I did a lot of films in between.
JWB: Sounds like you were just as satisfied by the vanilla films as the SM ones.
RE: Yes. Everything I did, Joseph, I tried to do as a creative thing. For me, any film that I've ever done is... well, it's not erotic for me. It's not a turn-on or anything like that, as you well know, having done videos yourself. There's nothing erotic about it. Everybody says, "Oh god, I'd love to do that. It's so erotic." But it's not. Your mind is working a thousand miles a minute trying to make sure you'll be able to edit this tape, checking that you've got all the shots you need. And you've got people coming to you from here, there, and yon with problems. There's nothing erotic about it.
JWB: No, a shoot is ruined if too many people on the set are thinking it's sexy.
RE: Well, I keep my set as minimal as possible. I mean, there are absolutely no guests on the set. There is no way a performer can perform with guests. I try to keep as few people on the set as possible. I don't even allow a make-up man on the set. When I need a make-up man, he's called in, but he's not allowed to stay on the set. I have even decided I want to shoot without a still photographer. Instead, I'll have the photographer come in, and we'll pose in positions for him before the shoot. I'll do it again after we shoot the scene if I need to, but it costs a day and a half of work to take all the fucking camera clicks out of the picture, and that's a lot of money. Anyway, I'll tell you, Joseph, nine times out of ten, most of the pictures taken during a shoot aren't used, and I can pose pictures that will be used. We're better off to pose it. So that's my feeling. I've never done that before, but that's how I would like to work.
JWB: When did you finish shooting the last of the European SM scenes? I know the last one - Loose Ends of the Rope - was just released.
RE: It's been about four or five years since we shot that. It was lying around in the can for that long.
JWB: And you haven't shot anything since?
RE: No, there's nothing in the can. It's all done. Everything is done, over, finished.
JWB: Does that get you crazy, not shooting?
RE: It does and it doesn't. Terry keeps saying we've got to do this again, we've got to make some more product. He is so incredibly tied up with the AIDS services work that he's doing, that I don't know how he could make time to shoot more films. He can't even take time to have lunch with me, so I don't know how the hell he thinks he's going to have the time to shoot a film. You know what I'm saying. He's so busy that I don't see how he can be a part of any more filming, and that breaks my heart because he's been such a integral part of this whole thing for me. As I told you before, he's important to this work, with all his chutzpah and shit. He's the best at what he does, he's absolutely the best.
JWB: I'm still wondering about a question I asked you before you even came in for this interview: Where does the vision or genius or whatever it is come from? For me, the difference between a Roger Earl SM film and most of the stuff that's supposed to be SM is a kind of vision that gets off of the screen and into the viewer's groin.
RE: I don't know. I can't answer that. All I can do is just tell you the way I work. I get the guys together and tell them I do not intend to interfere with them unless they get in trouble, or I need something from them so I can get a shot, or if they' re going someplace that is worthless to me. I tell them I want them to follow their own feelings and do their own thing. Then, if I feel that they are getting too heavy, going too light, too this or that, I will stop them. But, other than that, I just tell them to get into each other and pay no attention to any of the other people on the set. “Just forget that we're here,” I say, “and give me a scene between you two hot guys.” Now, I want them to realize I'm putting this on film, that this is forever, so therefore, they should go as far as they can, understanding they'll never have to do this again. I tell the performers, "I mean, it's not like you're home playing with some guy and tomorrow you may be out playing with somebody else. Beat the shit out of his ass so it's bright red. He'll have two, three weeks to heal up before he goes again. Just go as far as you can go, because this is forever." And I usually get good performances out of the guys that way. I have had to stop people for one reason or the other and say, "Well, this really isn't working, guys. Now, let's talk about it. Let me give you some suggestions and see what you think..." That's the way I work with them. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
I don't take my eyes off the monitor all the time I'm shooting, because I'm editing in my mind as I shoot. I'm picturing the whole film and always checking whether it's going to have that kind of electricity, that kind of going-to-the-groin thing. I mean, it's got to get me going, looking in that monitor and picturing my editing; otherwise, it ain't working and that's when I stop it and try to figure out what's wrong. So I don't call it genius. It's just a feeling that I have. It's just a feel that I seem to have with it. I like SM. I like pornography. I like nudity. I like all of these things. And I do not like to watch a film where the guys don't strip down naked. I want to see nudity. I love nudity. I love the human body. These things are very important. I want to see that asshole spread wide. I think an asshole is a beautiful thing. I want to get down there and kiss it. I try to think... because I'm such a connoisseur of porn, I try to watch every film that I can. I waste so much time watching porno films and I try to use all of this as an education for myself. What are the hot things that people are doing? My god, look what he did there! That was dynamite! These are the things that I try to keep in mind, things that make my blood churn.
JWB: Apart from your own, what are the great porn films?
RE: I think many films, not all films, but many films have little pieces of genius and little pieces of magic in them. I can't say that the magic or genius in any film - including my own - extends through the entire film.
JWB: A couple of yours stay magical for me throughout.
RE: Not in my mind. But that's wonderful. I'm glad to hear it.
JWB: For me, the genius is ever-present in Born To Raise Hell and Marks of Pleasure, end to end in both of them. And my all-time favorite scene is the slapping scene in Marks of Pleasure.
RE: I love both of them, myself, I really do. I think that there are so many films that have that little spot·of genius, that little spot of magic. That's what I call it. It's absolute magic that makes the blood boil, and it's heaven, but it's hard... To me, it's really impossible to sustain that through a whole film. You know, you get as close as you can, but you can't sustain that through an entire film. I agree with you that the slapping scene is really the best piece of Marks. That's the little bit of magic for me.
JWB: Can you give me Roger Earl in twenty-five words or less?
RE: Small town guy from the Mojave desert, population of thirty-five people. That little town is gone now. A freeway bypassed it and it no longer exists. My mom and dad were like the Grapes of Wrath, the Pikes coming from Arkansas to California. Their car broke down in Ludlow and they never left. My dad ended up buying a garage/motel...
JWB: The whole town, in effect?
RE: It was basically the town. I went to school fifty miles one way and fifty miles back on the school bus. Totally small town, and the only child in the town of thirty-five people. Since I was the only child, I could do no wrong, was spoiled rotten. Absolutely spoiled rotten by everyone in town. I used to carry on with hitchhikers. I could have gotten out in the middle of the street and sucked somebody off, and nobody would have believed it, because I was the kid that could do no wrong. My dad used to lease land out to the Marine Corps for desert maneuvers, and I got thrown off the base because I was "interfering with the Marines.” It was just an interesting, wonderful life.
JWB: Then, was it in your teens that you moved to L.A.?
RE: I moved to San Bernardino, went to a junior college there, then I moved again and went to college in Los Angeles. I graduated with a Bachelor of Professional Arts degree. Then went to work at NBC.
JWB: So you actually went to school with some idea of doing what you ended up doing.
RE: No, I was going to be an interior decorator. I never became an interior decorator. I ended up, right after I got out of school, going to work in television.
JWB: And your two careers started almost simultaneously right there.
RE: Right. When I got out of school, opportunity kind of knocked and fell in my lap, and I took it. And I never became a decorator, which was fine with me.
JWB: I think we're all lucky that you didn't become a decorator; everything you decorated would have been redecorated by now, but the tapes don't change.